So if Glorfindel and a Balrog is an even match, and Glorifindel can ride against all nine Nazgul, then I think the Balrog could also 'ride' (or is that move with winged speed?) Glorfindel is one of the firstborn of the elves and was once the Lord of the House of the Golden Flower in Gondolin. This brings us back to Glorfindel. I'm not in possession of sufficient time to try and learn this for myself point by point, but I'm reasonably sure you've done your research. Glorfindel and Sauron "Glorfindel, may I ask you a question?" [Sauron] chanted a song of wizardry, Between minor theories, rehashings of old debates I've had that others were not privy to, speculation, etc, I could easily keep going for a year or two. In Lord of the Rings, What is an Elf-Lord? So, to anyone who has not examined the History of Middle-earth, read it! She was also immensely wise and intelligent. This is a concept for the origin of Orcs I have not come in contact with before, will you go into further detail? We emphasise serious discussion here over jokey/meme-based posts. These are where Tolkien affirms that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same Elf as Glorfindel of Gondolin (which is untrue of many names he recycled from 'The Fall of Gondolin', such as Legolas and Galdor). And trust unbroken, freedom, escape; He was, however, still less mighty than Gandalf. Two hundred years after Gondolin was wrought, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, and Egalmoth, along with the White Lady of the Ñoldor left the Hidden City due to Aredhel's yearning for the freedom she once had in Valinor. Several reasons immediately come to mind. Where does Gnome keep track of window size to use when starting applications? While the Ainur had the ability to present themselves as Elves, or Men, or terrifying embodiments of the sea, or just not at all, the Istari were actually placed into human bodies and thereby cut off from much of their power and abilities. open the road to the fire by the power that is in him.". In Tolkien’s history it’s rare anyone survives killing a being of Sauron power. Balrog vs Glorfindel- even match. The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision. Sauron isn't a Balrog for several reason. site design / logo © 2021 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. I enjoy reading drafts nearly as much as I enjoy reading LOTR. ), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "Last Writings", "Glorfindel I & II". But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West, -- "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (The Silmarillion). Glorfindel, as well, is specifically more mighty during the events of The Lord of the Rings, after his return from death. So given Sauron was weaker, and Glorfindel was likely stronger it’s possible. Durin's Bane, like Gandalf, was a Maia, and these Balrogs were a race of creatures created, one and all, by Morgoth. the gates of Barad-dur do not return. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; wereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty. This is all contained in 'Myths Transformed', a section of Morgoth's Ring, the tenth volume of The History of Middle-earth. Etc. But, when only one aspect of the story is used the 'outdated' portion is often cast aside like yesterdays stock market predictions. So the High Elves are shown to be immensely powerful beings. One of these things that changed, with Balrogs becoming spirits from before the World, was their power. Gandalf seems to claim the same thing about Glorfindel (will find the quote soon, hopefully), which comes to my point: why would a high elf (or Glorfindel, who could apparently veil his power like an Istari) arouse Sauron and a wizard wouldn't. While it is discussed within Tolkien's late writings on Orc origins, it is not an origin in and of itself (unless these Orc-formed Maiar were responsible for a rough outline of what Orcs were to later be). After the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Aragorn visits the Houses of Healing, where he sees Faramir, Éowyn and Merry lying under the influence of the Black Breath. Some elves existed before the 1st age and learned from the Valar themselves. That said it’s unlikely Glorfindel would have survived his victory. Second, the situation that arose would need to be altered. -History of Middel Earth The Last Writings, Glorfindel Even Gandalf was unsure of his ability vs the witch king while Glorfindel faced him. As far as I am concerned, I solved that four years ago. Why would the duel of Glorfindel and the Demon need revision? Tuor kills fives. For instance, Galadriel. February 2021 Topic Challenge: Hal Clement, Opt-in alpha test for a new Stacks editor, Visual design changes to the review queues. An Istar is less powerful than a High Elf. Saved by Darth Jose, Dark Lord of the Sith. The mid-2nd age Numenorian army defeated Sauron without a fight, as did Beren and Luthien alone, but it took the deaths of Elendil AND Gil Galad to take him down at the end of the 2nd age. The Istari were Maiar, angelic beings, but their abilities had been diminished. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who had dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at one in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power. Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for science fiction and fantasy enthusiasts. Glorfindel war ein Elb aus Turgons Volk. While perfectly true that the Elves have diminished, the idea has unfortunately blended with parts of the early writings, since those are the most extant narratives of the Silmarillion tales. @Joel Where is it said that Glorfindel was more powerful after being reborn? Balrogs should be roughly equal, if for no reason other than Melkor molding them into a cohesive force and doling out his inherent might to them (the Morgoth, himself and his power disseminated across the world and his servants and slaves). . It wasn't until after Gandalf's departure that the Elves realised that the the Istari were sent by the Valar for their aid, so it would make sense that they do not shine out like a beacon in the Unseen world. When is it better to use the backquote, `(…), and when to use (list …)? Unfortunately, this does not take into account that Gandalf fought Durin's Bane decades later in Tolkien's life than Glorfindel fought his Balrog. The fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog, and the fact that the Glorfindel of The Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of The Lord of the Rings are one and the same, has often been used to demonstrate the great might of Glorfindel. Glorfindel confronted the Witch-king, who fled into the night. It is all but made cryustal clear (in one of the first quotes that explicitly names the Balrogs as Maiar) that they were Ainur who turned to his service before the Ainur descended into the world, the earliest and closest of his followers. One could argue that it was actually a stalemate. Gandalf seems to claim the same thing about Glorfindel (will find the quote soon, hopefully), which comes to my point: why would a high elf (or Glorfindel, who could apparently veil his power like an Istari) arouse Sauron and a wizard wouldn't. [The Ring Goes South] I believe his point in this passage is that force of arms is not what is going to help get the job done that needs getting done. "Here in Rivendell there still live some of his chief foes: the elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furtherest seas. Glorfindel was one of the primary reasons the Witch-King and his Black Numenoreans were defeated, and also took down a Balrog. This combat is mentioned twice more in the texts, first in the writing and then in a note to the second mention, that Christopher Tolkien determines occurred at the same time, not in later revision. Of snares eluded, broken traps. In Text VIII of 'Myths Transformed', Tolkien has made it quite clear that 'demon' is a word to be generally applied to evil Maiar, using 'demon-form' to reference the individually-chosen forms foregone by lesser Maiar who took the shape of Orcs. Is Sauron not a Balrog only because he doesn't he isn't covered in fire and use a whip? The real issue is would of course be getting to Sauron. He termed them 'Boldogs', after one of the most prominent reused names. Glorfindel lebte im Ersten Zeitalter in Gondolin und war Herr des Hauses der Goldenen Blume, einem der zwölf Häuser von Gondolin. With Glorfindel's opponent not being a Balrog, Melkor is free to have his Balrogs attacking Gondolin, rather than roaming about the far edges of the battle, which is considerably less ridiculous. Resisting, battling against power, Crash Log At least for Irmo. Remember what happened when Frodo offered the Ring of Power to Galadriel for safekeeping in FotR? Gandalf is with him, but he says that he wishes that Elrond were there, being the most powerful healer he knows. Press alt + / to open this menu This sub needs more high-quality, substantive posts like this. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. I'm so confused by which ones you are saying are balrogs and which are demons, and somehow only the demons are maiar yet aren't as strong? He says, "Even if you choose for us and elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nop open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him." There he says that the Balrogs were all supposed to have been destroyed in the War of Wrath, but we see that Durin's Bane fled and persisted, a transferral of evil from one age to the next, like Shelob from Ungoliant (and, the reader can fill in, like Sauron from Morgoth). So the Istari were placed in the bodies of Men and instructed to hide their origins from those in Middle-earth, to play a supporting role and assist the Elves, Men and Dwarves in resisting Sauron's dominion. System.log.txt - Free ebook download as Text File (.txt), PDF File (.pdf) or read book online for free. By this time, Gandalf has become the White and been given greater ability to intervene in events, so I feel it is more likely that Gandalf doesn't have the ability, as opposed to not being asked by Aragorn. Were these fixed and firm distinctions or was there sort of a spectrum? Gil Galad should have been similar in might to Fingolfin, who gave Morgoth a run for his money, and Elendil should be slightly above Beren/Tuor/Turin considering the Elf ancestry, but clearly isn't. Just as Frodo Baggins replaced Bingo Bolger-Baggins, just as Sauron (or Thu) replaced Tevildo, Prince of Cats, just as Maiar replaced (in part) the Children of the Valar, Balrogs as Maiar replaced Balrogs as a race of creatures. to their friendship than to great wisdom. What is supported by Tolkien replacing the word Balrog is that Tolkien wanted him to fight something other than a Balrog. Stack Exchange network consists of 176 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the tolkienfans community. They may retain relevance, in a fashion, like how the original riddles in the dark became a fib Bilbo told, or they may show the development of ideas, but it is the rewritten that stands above, as what is 'true'. While this is speculation, I can come up with two plausible theories. Or even just a conclusion. How to deal with crossing wires when designing a PCB? With the lower bound of the note not possible given the ideas at the time, and with the issue never truly raised again, this has led many (myself included) to disregard the specific numbers presented and take it as an indication that Tolkien was moving from vast numbers of Balrogs to a number a child might easily count up to. little, except arouse the power of Mordor. Of secrets kept, strength like a tower, It was intended to mean 'Golden-tressed', and was the name given to the heroic 'Gnome' (Ñoldo), a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of Cristhorn ('Eagle-cleft') fought with a Balrog [>Demon], whom he slew at the cost of his own life. I am thinking of doing something of this sort (though usually less involved than this; I don't have the extra spare time to do that much novel research) on a weekly or fortnightly basis. ... Then Sauron stripped from them their disguise, and they stood before him, naked and afraid. Glorfindel encounters the Balrog leading a pack of Orcs as the refugees from Gondolin are fleeing by an even-more-secret way out the vale of Gondolin than the secret ways Morgoth was told about by Maeglin. Things changed. Glorfindel vs Balrog. Some facts are mentioned, in that Sauron retreated before the Council due to the devices of Saruman, as stated by Gandalf. You're one of the 3 or so contributors that I trust on matters Tolkien, and it's so nice for a change to see you contributing something clearly thought out and insightful, instead of (helpfully) correcting people. More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and to seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. None knew at that time whence they [came], save Círdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. My local book stores and thrift shops have only yielded volume 5 thus far . Gil-galad is cooler, for the same reasons. Revealing, uncovering, betraying. Galdor and Glorfindel then describe Bombadil as not being able to withstand Sauron in the end, once Gandalf suggests he won't lead the use of the Ring: 'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, `to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. Another was number. How did old television screens with a light grey phosphor create the darker contrast parts of the display? It also stands as a contrast to his use of 'angelic' when talking about Maiar (and Valar) who have not fallen to evil. So I think Gandalf could have slayed Smaug, except that he wasn't really allowed to and to slay a dragon, you have to be lucky, which both men were. The Glorfindel texts explicitly say this. Why we still need Short Term Memory if Long Term Memory can save temporary data? Glorfindel slew a Balrog on the flight from Gondolin, but he was himself killed like Gandalf. those who pass Their orders were to lead her towards Hithlum, where she would meet her elder brother Fingon. Age. Elves in general were still stronger, but that idea isn't as powerful as one might think, given how often it was referenced. This subreddit is a space for the Tolkien nerds of reddit to debate and discuss the whole Tolkien mythos. What are the differences between an agent and a model? But it is said he was given power comparable to a Maïa upon his return, so that says he didn't have that power before his death. 3 talking about this. In the First Age he face against a Balrog in Cirith Thoronath. I note that Sauron is more powerful, but I mean this (as Tolkien did) in a sheer demiurgic sense, as a measure of inherent might. Then sudden Felagund there swaying Likewise, the werewolf progenitor, Draugluin, I would place at the Balrog level or (more probably) a bit below. Combat-wise, the Balrogs (I argue) should trounce Sauron, just as Eonwe is not the greatest of the Maiar but is the greatest in might of arms. Sauron was never a lead from the front type of guy, and his experiences of getting his butt kicked on 3 separate occasions made him less so. Would the strongest non-Balrog be at least similar to the weakest Balrog? And it mentions his fight with the Balrog, in a fashion. To be perfectly honest, I don't even think about the question anymore. The note reads: There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed. And where would Sauron fit? He is far away. Etc. Mildly related, what are your thoughts on what constitutes a specific type of evil maiar? In early writings, near the end of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears Melkor looses his reserves, which include a thousand Balrogs. I'd take it a step further. One of the mighty Elf-Kings of the First Age, Finrod Felagund, fought a magic battle against Sauron and didn't entirely lose, so Gandalf isn't being hyperbolic here. Im Jahr 472 E.Z. . He may not be the only Elven Prince on Middle-Earth who has seen the Light of Valinor, but he is definitely one that has confronted the Nine before. When co… Seeded even back in the lays, where Thu, an early name for Sauron (note the phonetic similarity, and the retention in later names for Sauron, like 'Gorthaur'), shifted back into during his frantic attempt to wrest free of Huan's grip. And did Tolkien go on to mention how they propagated from the relatively few numbers of the Maiar to the many thousands our heroes face throughout the legendarium? end J. R. R. Tolkienh 9780547928197q,4a00c5e6-9ab0-41eb-b2e8-6b5058aaf29ap4calibre:4a00c5e6-9ab0-41eb-b2e8-6b5058aaf29a ・ EBOKj!2012-09-18T05:00:00+00:00フ ノヘ ホ マ ・ノ ヒ ハ ・ kindle:embed:0001t 2・・ The Return of the King: Being the Third Part of the Lord of the Rings They stand apart in time, not side by side. Why did Saruman seem to believe that Sauron wouldn't return? Can't quite figure out the right word.) Rings vs. Silmarils. Glorfindel of the 3rd age seems so mighty because he has not experienced thousands of years of Middle Earth strength waning like Elrond and Galadriel. Entdecke (und sammle) deine eigenen Pins bei Pinterest. Later crown of Valandil vs. Numenorian crown it replaced. Also AFAIK, Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his full majesty and power by the Valar until he was resurrected by Iluvatar. If Sauron had won, would the Valar have intervened? With the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die. But what about the Istari? Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Éowyn, and last to Merry. 26.03.2014 - Joanna Maria hat diesen Pin entdeckt. Let me take a brief aside to point out that there are not two sorts of Balrogs. rev 2021.2.10.38546, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us. Sauron did not. Later in the chapter, he is joined in healing others of the Black Breath by the Sons of Elrond, but again Gandalf doesn't seem to be involved. Had I a host of elves in armour of the elder days, it would avail you We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. This weakening can be seen in other ways. You're argument is sound, so sound in fact that one reading it could be intimidated into thinking that early works such as BoLT are irrelevant. @LAK J.R.R. Tolkien's words in Letter 144, where it appears he is suggesting Durin's Bane was the last Balrog, the only to escape from the War of Wrath, still uses language that is troubling if there were seven, and is almost logically impossible if there were three. Glorfindel's own statement- Elrond sends out those who could ride against all nine. Melkor did not have a thousand Maiar under his control; in the Annals of Arda, written after The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien made a note in a margin where he had copied over his old words about a 'host of Balrogs', at Melkor's disposal. It would not be said that the glory of Tuor is on trial because we reject the statement that he slew five Balrogs, after all. Share your thoughts, experiences and the tales behind the art. Therein lies the answer to your question. Osse, I think, appears more potent largely because he is more directly relevant and in a less subtle manner. This note in the margin is at odds with what came before, where when necessary, for effect, Balrogs not only existed but were killed in droves, at the Breaking of Utumno, at the Fall of Gondolin, and during the War of Wrath. While Tolkien spends most of this time talking about Glorfindel's return from death and the mechanics and timeline of his return to Middle-earth, it is the only post-LotR source that takes more than a passing regard to his role in the Silmarillion. When he had looked on the faces of the sick... he sighed. Neither of these applies when Gandalf faces Durin's Bane, and if Gandalf was limited in that fight he would have lost. After elves die their spirits got to the Halls of mandos and depending on their deeds of that life, they stay there for a while and then they are reborn in Valinor and when they are full grown they remember all from their previous life. "Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me," he said. @Trollwut: no, it is clear that Glorfindel was sent back from Mandos more powerful than before, not the opposite. The company of the ring shall be nine.". Thanks for contributing an answer to Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange! Need a tldr to sum things up.. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. She was able to enter peoples minds to read and communicate with them. Did Sauron literally anticipate the arrival of the Istari? Besides this Gandalf makes a point to the Fellowship later on how dangerous it is to attempt to enter and leave Sauron's domains. I must philosophically reject the blending, or viewing what were clearly subsequent rewritings as somehow parallel. The Balrogs, being primeval spirits of destroying fire, put their power to use in means that would benefit physical confrontation. Quite a clique, and one not even the late-coming but considerably more powerful Sauron could breach. By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Men, aside from Eärendil, do not survive going to Valinor, and they certainly wouldn't return to Middle-earth afterward if the did. I do sometimes wonder at the relevance of a few of the female Valar, Nessa included. I had no idea what point he/she was trying to make. There would not have been a great number of them (though naturally more than Balrogs), but Tolkien devised them in part because he realized he had reused names for Orc-captains during the First Age with years between far exceeding the natural lifespan of Orcs. I don't recall that from anything I've read. Tolkien had multiple ideas of what Balrogs were over the years, but only ever one at a time. Glorfindel was born in Tirion sometime during the Noontide of Valinor, and was descended from a house of princes. It was Aragorn's thirtieth birthday, and Elrond had reluctantly agreed to a small celebration at Imladris. It seems to me that the easiest answer would be to attribute the contradictory characteristics to the waning of strength of Middle Earth creatures - i.e., first age elves and men were just more bad ass than their third age counterparts on average. At this point, much as we see in The Silmarillion, two have died at Gondolin, which means there would be between one (who must be Durin's Bane) and five Balrogs in the War of Wrath. She refused it. In Tolkien's 'final' form we at least have Balrogs, these 'Boldogs', Sauron, and whatever else there may be. How can a technologically advanced species be conquered by a less advanced one? When I retire, should I really pull money out of my brokerage account first when all my investments are long term? And I might, if I can maintain the effort. war Glorfindel Hauptmann Gondolins in Turgons Heer. Er wurde in Valinor geboren und lebte dort, bis er mit dem Großteil seines Volkes das Segensreich verließ und nach Mittelerde ging, wodurch auch er unter den Fluch der Noldorfiel. Sections of this page. In 'The Fall of Gondolin' in The Book of Lost Tales II, Balrogs die by the score and by the hundreds. Witch King vs Glorfindel- Witch King soils armor while running away. The fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog, and the fact that the Glorfindel of The Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of The Lord of the Rings are one and the same, has often been used to demonstrate the great might of Glorfindel. In the Third Age he was a major fighter in the battle of Fornost where Witch-king of Angmar was defeated. Galadriel was 'one of the most powerful' elves, her magic enhanced with her ring enabled her to be the magical equal of Sauron for a short time. That's not to say you have to be a LOTR scholar or Tolkien academic to post or enjoy this subreddit, but that we'd prefer not to have image macros or movie gifs filling up this forum. For if Gandalf struggled for ten days against Durin's Bane, the swiftness of the fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog, and the manner in which Glorfindel held the upperhand throughout, … To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. So Elrond is merely saying that it's not a good idea to send many people, and certainly not an armed battalion. In the Second Age Glorfindel was sent by the Valar to Middle-earth to aid in the fight against Sauron, who had unveiled himself as the new Dark Lord. If Tolkien was considering having Glorfindel fight, still a Maia, but not something as potent as a Balrog, it would fix many of the issues in the text. To answer my own question, I would have to say I agree with some place in the middle. For example, Ossë seems much more potent (he was even a Vala himself in an early draft if I remember right) than say Lorien or Nessa, yet they get to be relegated to the "great ones" and Ossë is just "other". Sarumann's ring vs. Sauron's ring. But by this point not all of Morgoth's servants need to involved in the central conflict of Arda, but dispersed around the far reaches of Ea (which developmentally had become more like the Universe than Arda globed amid the Void, as in early writings). Why? He played a prominent behind-the-scenes role in the war in Eriador and the other struggles of the Second Age and Third Age. Sauron (pronounced / ˈ s aʊ r ɒ n /) is the title character and the main antagonist, through the forging of the One Ring, of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, where he rules the land of Mordor and has the ambition of ruling the whole of Middle-earth.In the same work, he is identified as the "Necromancer" of Tolkien's earlier novel The Hobbit. Would Durin's Bane or Gothmog be stronger or greater than Sauron? Gothmog, naturally, should be greater than the rest. ", -- "The Houses of Healing" (The Lord of the Rings, the Return of the King). I will write a proper answer. While the Blue Wizards were sent to the east, Glorfindel’s mission was to aid Gil-galad and Elrond in the struggle against Sauron. Aug 11, 2017 - Tolkien: "Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his face..." (The Fall of Gondolin) M... Glorfindel battles the Balrog 18. Great post. The glory of Glorfindel should not be seen as on trial. A select group of his Dunedain friends had been invited (all, as he was, barely out of their childhood), along with a dozen or so of Imladris' aristocracy, Gandalf the Grey and a handful of particularly close companions. The passage you're talking about Lexible is when Gandalf disagrees with Elrond and would rather Frodo have his friends go than an elf-lord. Glorfindel. He followed the House of Fingolfin during the Flight of the Ñoldor, but he took no part in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Welcome to r/tolkienfans! Likewise, it has seemed at odds with what came after, though to a far lesser degree. But I would propose that the great feat of Glorfindel would not, had Tolkien been able to continue his works, have been the slaying of a Balrog, but something else, a Demon of not-quite Might.

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